Today, we continued our discussions on Perek Vav, trying to decide whether or not it was Yeshayahu's hakdasha, or indeed a change in his mission. Something we learned caught my attention, but I probably won't be able to put my feelings into words and give them [my feelings] justice.
In Pasuk Tet, Hashem tells Yeshayahu to "make the people's hearts fat, their ears heavy, and to shut their eyes, lest they do teshuva." The lest clearly poses a problem to us. What does it mean, lest? Don't we want them to do teshuva? There are two different ways to understand this pasuk: As the change in mission, or as the hakdasha.
In terms of the change in mission, it would be understood as follows: The people themselves have sinned, actively refusing to listen because they are so fearful of seeing the true meaning and being forced to change their ways, and so they block out what the navi says lest they become compelled to do teshuva. Simple enough.
Now, I personally believe the evidence is much stronger for the case of Perek Vav being Yeshayahu's hakdasha. But when we understand pasuk tet in a way that it is part of his hakdasha, we see something shocking. If it is indeed the hakdasha, then in the future Hashem is going harden their hearts so they don't do teshuva. Hashem is saying they are past the point of no return and need to go through punishment (in order to...)
I understand that sometimes we need to go through punishment, and I understand that at that time the people probably wouldn't have repented. But it is so hard to believe that Hashem would take away that option for the Jews by hardening their hearts. If their sins were so bad that Hashem did that, what does that say for us? It is so much easier to sin now, because we have so much more we can do to break halachot. Such as non-kosher resteraunts, using electricity on shabbos, etc. Is Hashem going to harden our hearts? Additionally, when I think of G-d, I like to think that G-d isn't a petty human with petty feelings. G-d doesn't get so mad that it's just all out punishment, anger, and abandonment. Why harden our hearts? G-d isn't supposed to be like that- abandoning us and so on and so forth. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the subject? I know the simple answer is Hashem doesn't actually harden their hearts, and it is a change in mission. But I really believe that it's the hakdasha. So how do we justify the statement? It's a conundrum [yes, I used a word Mrs. Perl used today (: Yay!]
In Pasuk Tet, Hashem tells Yeshayahu to "make the people's hearts fat, their ears heavy, and to shut their eyes, lest they do teshuva." The lest clearly poses a problem to us. What does it mean, lest? Don't we want them to do teshuva? There are two different ways to understand this pasuk: As the change in mission, or as the hakdasha.
In terms of the change in mission, it would be understood as follows: The people themselves have sinned, actively refusing to listen because they are so fearful of seeing the true meaning and being forced to change their ways, and so they block out what the navi says lest they become compelled to do teshuva. Simple enough.
Now, I personally believe the evidence is much stronger for the case of Perek Vav being Yeshayahu's hakdasha. But when we understand pasuk tet in a way that it is part of his hakdasha, we see something shocking. If it is indeed the hakdasha, then in the future Hashem is going harden their hearts so they don't do teshuva. Hashem is saying they are past the point of no return and need to go through punishment (in order to...)
I understand that sometimes we need to go through punishment, and I understand that at that time the people probably wouldn't have repented. But it is so hard to believe that Hashem would take away that option for the Jews by hardening their hearts. If their sins were so bad that Hashem did that, what does that say for us? It is so much easier to sin now, because we have so much more we can do to break halachot. Such as non-kosher resteraunts, using electricity on shabbos, etc. Is Hashem going to harden our hearts? Additionally, when I think of G-d, I like to think that G-d isn't a petty human with petty feelings. G-d doesn't get so mad that it's just all out punishment, anger, and abandonment. Why harden our hearts? G-d isn't supposed to be like that- abandoning us and so on and so forth. Maybe one of you can shed some light on the subject? I know the simple answer is Hashem doesn't actually harden their hearts, and it is a change in mission. But I really believe that it's the hakdasha. So how do we justify the statement? It's a conundrum [yes, I used a word Mrs. Perl used today (: Yay!]
Zahava,
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with you, especially on the last paragraph! You are absolutely right, and I, too, am troubled by this explanation.
I mean, I was troubled enough while learning the story of H' hardening Pharoh's heart. Though there were explanations given, I still wasn't fully convinced. So not to think that this would apply to the Jewish people? H''s nation? It just doesn't make any sense..It's very sad. So, yes, I would hope that that is not the case.
Here's a solution for you, Zahava: turn to the other side! Make it a change in mission!
Yes it is true that there are many ways to sin nowadays including eating non-kosher, breaking Shabbat, and pretty much any other Mitzvah you can think of. The difference I think is that today we have so many things keeping us from sinning though. If you think about it just here in Memphis we have at least 3 shuls, a Jewish school for all ages, and a good majority of the population is Jewish. I myself have been tempted or a better way to word this is I have thought about: What difference would it make if I check my phone on Shabbat or turn off the light so I can sleep better, no one will see I will be all alone in my room? For me the thought that G-d judges us when we die and weighs our sins and good deeds against each other when we (hopefully) get to Shamaim scares me enough into doing the right thing. (but the thought that what would it matter is always on the back burner in my mind)
ReplyDeleteI think that this could go either way because I could either feel pressured to do the wrong thing and break Shabbat or eat non-kosher because pretty much everyone has a neighbor doing that or just someone in the community does, including maybe some friends of yours and in some case possibly even your own family. On the flip side I am also pressured into doing the right thing Judaically because the majority of people I see around me on a daily basis are Jewish and do do the right thing. Going into GMSG I have been pressured to do many things that I have not been pressured to do before because a handful of the girls are not religious or not as religious as I am (no offense to anyone and neither am I thinking of anyone in particular) but you need to remember your values. I think that personally for me I have learned about this religion for so long and have invested 14 years of my life into it that I don't want to throw it all away. Its not a hassle for me to live this way day to day. Everything I need for it is already given to me and made simple.
I think the people back then had to deal with many nations hating them and everything they were about. All they probably wanted to do was fit in and stop getting picked on.
Another thought I had is that maybe Hashem has handed the Jews everything and now that He wants them to be a little independent and live without being babied into it, now the people are freaking out and experimenting with their option. G-d gave us all free choice. Making us do the right thing or the thing He wants us to would just go against our free choice.
feel free to disagree with any of my personal ideas!
Orly. I admire how you feel, about investing your life into this religion for four years and not wanting to throw it away.
ReplyDeleteOrly is right- is it really a hassle to spend twenty five minutes davening? I mean, you have the time at school anyways, and you're not doing anything else, so why not?
I agree with what you're saying about temptations, and that the fear of G-d keeps us in stride. But what about those who don't believe in G-d and are born Jewish? Or those who believe in G-d, but don't think he cares that we eat pig? [just a side point.]
My problem is though, it says G-d will harden their hearts. How can G-d harden their hearts? How can He take away their free will? Isn't G-d above that? It is just such a big question about the G-d we believe in. I mean, I wouldn't want to be judged by... I can't explain, but like, you don't want to know that G-d is so angry that G-d, G-D!! is going to punish us in such harsh ways... It's a lot to think about, and perhaps the hardest part is that there is no conclusive answer?
I am sure there probably is not an answer that EVERYONE will be happy with. But maybe thinking about it like this could give you a different view on it: There is a mother who has patients up the wahazoo (yes I just made up a word). Whenever her children do something wrong she takes a deep breath and deals with it, without blowing up. But lets say she has just found out that her teenage son (or daughter) has decided to go off the derech and experiment with different religion. I mean what is the harm in that? all he wants to do is see what else is out there for him? Well now let me tell u that this isn't the first "wrong" thing this teenager has done. He has tried drugs, broke curfew, gets bad grades, etc. His mother just breaths through it all and keeps telling him she loves him and tries to guide him into the right thing. When the teenager tells his mother about going off the derech she freaks out! I mean full out blown up! Why? well simply because no matter what he did he still had G-d and Judaism in the back of his mind. Now he doesn't care. Who gave him the right to just decide to through away everything his ancestors have worked so hard to keep alive? true there is freedom of just about anything but not according to his mother. All she has ever wanted is a nice son with good Jewish values. Now apply it to Hashem and the Jewish people. All Hashem wants is a nation (who he chose) with good Jewish values.
ReplyDeleteDoes that help? I hope it does....
Actually Orly I really liked that. But don't you think the mother should love her son anyways? Although... I don't know... But that actually was helpful :)
ReplyDeleteJust following this conversation, I can see both sides to the argument. On one hand, HaShem seems to be controlling the nation so that they can't decide on their own that they want to do good rather than bad. On the other side, I think that HaShem does let them have a lot of freedom. After all, He hasn't decided to punish them without giving them a chance to repent until now. He has sat through everything the nation has done up to now. I think this is just the breaking point. Like Mrs. Perl said in class, they have crossed the point of no return. Even if they want to repent and be saved from punishment, I don't think they would be able to. Once you get into a habit it keeps getting harder and harder to break it as you add more actions and feelings to it. Maybe the nation is at a point where even if they wanted to change and were willing to work at it, they are so far gone that it would be either almost or completely impossible for them to succeed.
ReplyDeleteWith Orly's analogy about the mother and her son, Zahava, your last post about how you think the mother should still love her child, I think she does still love him. I think that she was always upset about the things her son was doing, but she held in her feelings about it. She might have thought that, "It's his life, he'll have to live with it. Let him figure it out on his own." All the other things though, he wasn't ruining anything for anyone else. He was hurting himself, yes, and his mother by her watching him do it to himself, but overall it wasn't hurting anyone else. When he tried to stray away from Judaism, though, like Orly said, he was ruining all that his ancestors had worked for. They had lived through hardship and hate from others, all the while holding on to their heritage, in order that they would have something valuable to pass on to their descendants. This boy was totally throwing that out the window. He wasn't thinking about what his ancestors had done for him; he wanted to go his own way and didn't think about anyone but himself. I think that his mother still loved him immensely, but she could see the bigger picture when he could not. She might have been very close to the breaking point when he was doing things to himself, but she found the strength to take a step back and let him figure himself out with a little help on the side. But when he tried to ruin things that others before him had worked hard to give him, that was the last straw. Then his mother flipped out.
I don't know if anyone sees what I'm saying, much less agrees with me, but I hope this helped if anyone was still a little confused.
I would like to bring up the other side to the original argument. Maybe this is showing a change in mission, not a hakdasha, and that the fattening of their hearts and everything else happened before in the past. In a sense, this shows that they heard and saw everything that had happened but it didn't "click" with them in the way it was supposed to-they misinterpreted their lives in a sense. They looked at the events all around them , and instead of seeing that G-d was behind the scenes, and that things were happening to them for a reason, they looked at what happened to them from a geo-political point of view. so instead of turning to G-d, they attributed everything to luck and chance, and did not believe there was a master plan and reasons behind their lives.
ReplyDeleteI think that Mirel has great reasoning behind her answer, and not only does it make perfect sense, it seems to me like it is also a really good analogy to use to show the relationship between G-d and Bnei YIsrael. Hashem was giving them multiple opportunities to do Teshuva, and was able to forgive them each time they did something wrong, and also gave them all the resources they needed to be able to straighten themselves back out again if they only put in a little bit of effort. But they didn't have any urge to repent. They only kept sinking deeper and deeper until finally it was too late. Drastic measures had to be taken and no longer was there a "mr. nice guy".There was no time for big smiling, forgiving faces. They needed to be taught a lesson that would not be soon forgotten or pushed off. This is why I think Hashem isn't allowing them to do teshuva anymore: it would not be in their best interest and they had gone too far already.
ReplyDeleteAm I the only one here that thinks doing drugs is worse than going off the derech?
ReplyDeleteRacheli- yes, that's why, although I understood Orly's analogy, it is a little different, because this is G-d.
ReplyDeleteBut I think we're veering off topic. I'm just saying that I feel like G-d should be above this kind of anger, you know? And if we take this as the hakdasha, how do we justify this? I mean, yes, G-d needs to punish and reward, but taking away our free will... like I said, I cant do justice to my feelings in words, you really just need to feel what I am saying
I know what you mean. It's kind've like "What, did we hurt H''s feelings or what?"
ReplyDeleteright. exactly. so that's the problem. i wonder if there's an answer. because that's a huge problem...
ReplyDelete- I feel like G-d should be above this kind of anger, you know? (zahava)
ReplyDeleteSort of like I said last night, but I guess it wasn't so clear then: I don't think HaShem is doing this because he is angry at the nation. Obviously he IS angry and heartbroken because the nation is going against what he told them to do, but I don't think that's the entire reason he is fattening their hearts so they won't repent and will get punished. I think that He was doing it for the nation's own good to help them. Sort of like Orly's analogy last night to the mother and her son, what if the mother had, in fact, gotten angry at her son before and punished him? It wouldn't have been that she loved him any less. She would have been punishing him to protect him. We have already seen many times in the history of the Jews, that when we as a nation do something that is potentially dangerous to ourselves or to someone else, HaShem has punished us to stop us from going any further. It could be that there is another option for why HaShem is punishing the Jews. They are definitely already way far gone and steeped in sin, but what if they have not just yet crossed the point of no return? What if, to combine Orly's and my analogies, before this HaShem was like the mother when she didn't want to punish her child and wanted to let him work it out on his own, even when what he was doing was extremely bad. (Like Racheli said in school today, doing drugs is pretty far gone.) Then, now that they have crossed some invisible line, HaShem couldn't not punish them anymore. They were about to become unsalvageable. HaShem had no choice but to punish them, even though He didn't want to in order that the nation could still be saved instead of being totally wiped out when they did pass the point of no return.
Mirel- Even if this is Hashem's way of helping the nation, because they are beyond helping themselves by doing teshuva, it still bothers me.
ReplyDeleteIf I do the wrong thing, I don't want G-d to make me do something in order to help me. I want freewill. If i make dumb choices then when I die I will be punished, but G-d gave us free will so even though this is G-d we're talking about, I don't think that He should take it away, all though He can do whatever He wants. Doesn't that make you uncomfortable? I mean, what if you found out nothing you did was really you, but something you were being forced to do? I don't care how far gone I am, I want to do what I want. I just don't like this image of G-d being portrayed. I mean....
I definitely understand what you mean. You're right. It would make anyone mad to find out that they don't have free will. I'm just saying, whether anyone then or now likes it or not, that could have been what HaShem was doing.
ReplyDeleteNot even the free will. That's not what troubles me the most. It's the way we see G-d. Some being with petty human emotions, so mad that He is going to destroy us and take away our free will? It's a philosophical problem that can be applied to other situations, not just in the case of the Jews at this time.
ReplyDeleteZahava - it could still be a hakdasha. Yes the fact that their sins were clearly so bad that Hashem would say there is no chance for Teshuva doesn't mean anything good for us. But - you have to remember that they were given MULTIPLE chances to do teshuva and return to Hashem but instead in a way they kind of "spat in His face" .. So for Hashem to say that they're past the point of being able to do Teshuva and the only option left is punishment isn't all that shocking.. Of course we'd rather it be different, but it still makes sense.
ReplyDelete