Well, this title certainly sounds like a warning against loshon hara and the embarrassment it causes. But do not be fooled by this title. If words could kill is really about: if questions so complicated and hard to answer could kill.
Today in class, we continued with the pasukim in which Hashem says, "...lest they do teshuva." Two explanations were given as to what this could possibly mean. 1) The Jews themselves are so far gone, are so stubborn and unwilling to listen, so scared of what they would hear from Yeshayahu, that they simply won't do teshuva. This means that this statement is more sarcastic- Yeshayahu go out and speak to them lest they do teshuva. Really, this is a change in mission and Yeshayahu is simply going to continue speaking to be a navi on record, for future generations to learn from.
Option 2) G-d will harden their hearts and they will not do teshuva. I was once again bothered by these words. G-d simply cannot do this, I thought. Is G-d angry? G-d, who does not have human emotions. G-d is going to take away the choice of doing teshuva by way of removing free will, and then G-d will punish them and destroy all but a remnant? What is this? Mrs. Perl justified this statement, giving an example of her and her son. If she wants to prove a point, she has to give warnings and then if her child does not listen, she walks out of the room and does not stay with him until he falls asleep. Even if he were to beg, because then she would be "weak."
I understand this statement. But I am still troubled, because I also think that though this is true, with G-d it is different. Well, we had a discussion and we got to some pretty troubling questions. Here they are. Please try to post a response to these questions, backing up or disagreeing.
As Mrs. Wittlin said during chumash, don't stop asking these questions until you are satisfied, because it is important.
So even though it seems like this is far off topic, each question really flows one after the other [or it did in class] to justify this pasuk.
And for other readers not in our class- that is how special our navi class is! One pasuk sparks a LOT of conversation!
Today in class, we continued with the pasukim in which Hashem says, "...lest they do teshuva." Two explanations were given as to what this could possibly mean. 1) The Jews themselves are so far gone, are so stubborn and unwilling to listen, so scared of what they would hear from Yeshayahu, that they simply won't do teshuva. This means that this statement is more sarcastic- Yeshayahu go out and speak to them lest they do teshuva. Really, this is a change in mission and Yeshayahu is simply going to continue speaking to be a navi on record, for future generations to learn from.
Option 2) G-d will harden their hearts and they will not do teshuva. I was once again bothered by these words. G-d simply cannot do this, I thought. Is G-d angry? G-d, who does not have human emotions. G-d is going to take away the choice of doing teshuva by way of removing free will, and then G-d will punish them and destroy all but a remnant? What is this? Mrs. Perl justified this statement, giving an example of her and her son. If she wants to prove a point, she has to give warnings and then if her child does not listen, she walks out of the room and does not stay with him until he falls asleep. Even if he were to beg, because then she would be "weak."
I understand this statement. But I am still troubled, because I also think that though this is true, with G-d it is different. Well, we had a discussion and we got to some pretty troubling questions. Here they are. Please try to post a response to these questions, backing up or disagreeing.
- We always say Hashem does not have human emotions. And as Mrs. Wittlin said today in class, we have to be careful when explaining Hashem's actions with emotions. So what, is Hashem mad? Can He take away our free choice. I mean, clearly, Hashem is G-d, so yes, He can, but is this what we believe?
- If this is what we believe, or is in fact true, then what does that mean for us? Do we want to sit in a classroom and discuss and serve a G-d who acts like that?
- Fine, Hashem is teaching a lesson. But first off, why does He really care? I mean, they are violating Torah, but does this make Him sad? Why can't they enjoy themselves?
- Why is it fair that Jews, who are doing the same thing as every other nation in the world at the time, are going to be punished just because they are Jews? Why aren't the other nations punished? Just because they aren't Jews doesn't mean they're any less or more in the wrong. So why punish us?
- Why is there even a chosen nation? Why does G-d care about the Jews so much?
- Why can't we choose to be Jewish? At birth you are nothing and you learn all religions and choose the one that makes the most sense.
- It isn't fair for someone who is born Jewish, and is such a good, honest, moral person, but because they are Jewish will be punished for eating non kosher and not keeping shabbat. You can still be a moral person. Why should the whole nation/your family reject you because you don't believe in the same thing, but still, you're a moral person.
- Why can't there just be good people? why is it that the Jews are the one? Why are you born Jewish?
- Okay, Hashem will destroy all but a remnant. And I know all of Israel looks out for one another and cares about one another. But let's be honest- if G-d says He will destroy all the Jews [for our purpose using example from class, sorry if you don't want your name up!] aside from Racheli, Jamie, Sharon, Alex, Emma, Mirel, and Orly, I won't care. Yay, some Jews are spared, but what about me? My family? That's no comfort to say a remnant will remain. Because honestly when it comes down to it, I want my family and lineage to survive, I'm not really concerned with the rest of the class.
- Hashem punished them to teach them a lesson but still loves them and isn't even necessarily angry. Well obviously the lesson hasn't been learned because here we are thousands of years later and we read Yeshayahu's and everyone elses prophecies, we know the sins of the people in the past, we even recognize our sins today, but we don't do anything about it and it obviously doesn't matter because there is still no mashiach
As Mrs. Wittlin said during chumash, don't stop asking these questions until you are satisfied, because it is important.
So even though it seems like this is far off topic, each question really flows one after the other [or it did in class] to justify this pasuk.
And for other readers not in our class- that is how special our navi class is! One pasuk sparks a LOT of conversation!
“Why is it fair that Jews, who are doing the same thing as every other nation in the world at the time, are going to be punished just because they are Jews? Why aren't the other nations punished? Just because they aren't Jews doesn't mean they're any less or more in the wrong. So why punish us?”
ReplyDeleteOk. So when we were talking in class about this issue, we had another part to it. We also asked why it is fair that we as Jews are rewarded so much more for doing good than the Gentiles. It isn’t their fault that they were not born Jewish. My answer is that it seems to be a compromise. We have more restriction and obligations, but we also have more rewards. The Gentiles have less that they have to do and more that they can do if they want to, but they get less reward for doing it. That isn’t to say though, that they don’t get rewarded at all for doing good during their lifetimes. I’m sure that they get some kind of reward, whatever happens to them. Take a family for example. There are two daughters. One is 15 years old and one is 9. The 15 year old will probably get more chores and responsibilities, on top of schoolwork and everything else, but she will probably also get more freedoms and privileges. Though she does not have to, when the 9 year old daughter helps out, sure she will be praised and maybe even rewarded in some way, but she will not be given nearly as good a reward as her older sister.
“Why can't we choose to be Jewish? At birth you are nothing and you learn all religions and choose the one that makes the most sense.”
That would make sense, but obviously sometimes we are not given the choice to make decisions about how we want to run our own lives. It’s just the way some things are.
I see what you're saying but to me those are just excuses and I think that there needs to be concrete evidence and satisfying answers...
ReplyDeleteBut I appreciate that you responded! Just... I don't like that sometimes we don't get a choice, because this is such a big, huge problem, religion I mean. Because I may want to be a pious person but not be a Jew, which is totally possible. So it's unfair that I get a punishment for being a good person and not doing what I was forced to do.
Mrs Perl if you're reading this: Like we said, we have freewill so we have a choice to do follow or not follow, but the right thing is to follow. Well, we don't actually have a choice because if we are good people but leave the faith, then we know there may be punishment when we die. So we don't, even though we want to. It's coercion. Threats. Not true choice. It's like saying, "Son, you can go straight to college and skip Israel, but if you do I will cut you off and seek you out to make your life miserable." He has no choice but to go to ISrael, you're just making it appear as though there is free will.
Dear Zahava,
ReplyDeleteFirst off, I am dreadfully sorry that I didn't comment yesterday and that this is the third comment. I hope, one day overtime, you will find it in your vast heart to forgive me.
Now on to the topic of discussion:
Though I could try and come up with some metaphor or some pretend-complicated solution to your many questions, seriously: I share these same questions with you. If only Mrs. Perl would comment and help us out here..
I say: enough with the metaphors already! I want to know how things are! The end of the line is that we cannot go comparing things to Hashem because we just don't know. Human emotions have nothing to do with G-d's emotions therefore what does it matter how a human would react? Also- why did G-d even invent the world just for people to study Torah? And if that is the purpose, why were we constructed so that that's basically the last thing that we instinctively will do? And doesn't it seem a little 'selfish' -pardon my use of a human quality- for G-d to make the world just so people could worship It? On the outside, that seems a tad unnerving.
Now, I will allow myself to create a metaphor because the main character in the Nimshal doesn't turn out to be G-d. Okay, there are two vegetarians that have a kid: are they going to make their kid become a vegetarian (let's not go into the health blahblahblah of this..)? On the one hand, they believe that one shouldn't eat meat, on the other, that is just their opinion and there are many other types of diets out there. Whose to say that their kid has to be a vegetarian. The only difference is that when the kid leaves the house, even if they were forced to be a vegetarian in their house, when they leave they have the opportunity to go on whatever diet they want to guilt free- no strings attached. Jews apparently stay Jews forever no matter what- that doesn't make sense. Why have it on there? Why can't it be a choice thing?
To conclude, I concur with Zahava's questions (in the sense that I think they are valid questions that need to be answered).
"The end of the line is that we cannot go comparing things to Hashem because we just don't know. Also- why did G-d even invent the world just for people to study Torah? And if that is the purpose, why were we constructed so that that's basically the last thing that we instinctively will do?"-Rachel E Tsuna
ReplyDeleteEloquently put. Sums up some of my sentiments exactly, and so I forgive you for not responding last night. That's a great point by the way. Most people say why did G-d create us to serve Torah that's dumb, but your second half is a superb point!
Thank You!
ReplyDeleteAnd boy, does it feel good to be forgiven- whew!
“Why is it fair that Jews, who are doing the same thing as every other nation in the world at the time, are going to be punished just because they are Jews? Why aren't the other nations punished? Just because they aren't Jews doesn't mean they're any less or more in the wrong. So why punish us?”
ReplyDeletein response to Mrs Perl:
I just think that in the end, all Jews should be able to decide if they want to take that challenge on; to get more restrictions and obligations but then a greater reward. Or less restrictions and a smaller reward
I don't think that all Jews are able to fulfill this challenge, and would "do better" as people who have less obligations and a smaller reward. It's like in school: A person can chose to take honors or regular. If he is not that good in school he will not take honors, because in the end it will hurt him more than reward him, and regular would have been actually better for him.
I unfortunately do not know enough about the concept of having to stay Jewish/ religious and stuff, but it could be a posibillity that this was just said (that Jews cannot become non-Jews) to make sure that Jews will stay on the path and at least try to be the best Jews possible.(I don't agree with that though)
I feel crazy going back to this, but I believe I have half of the answer to one of the questions I had, though I'm thinking there is a more extensive answer in addition to this one, because a question does arise from it, but I thought I'd come back and answer it in case anyone else was interested.
ReplyDeleteOn the question: "Why were the Jews punished for doing things that all nations were doing at the time?"
Today in Chumash, we read a Kli Yakar about the burning bush and what it represents. He has two answers, and his second one goes as follows-
The bush is the Jewish people, the fire is the oppression of other nations. Why?
When Moshe is asking the two Jews who are fighting why they fight with one another, they say, "Will you kill us like you did the Egyptian?" And then Moshe says, "the matter is known." Kli Yakar suggests the following-
Moshe asked why the Jews suffered more than any other people. At that point, when the Jews are rude to him, he realizes- Because the Jewish people are constantly involved in making each other suffer through their words. Causing pain emotionally. Like the thorns of the bush, Jews are harsh with each other, pricking each other. We're in Galut because we still have this hate towards each other, or rude way of behaving, where we insult, whether or not we intend to, and don't apoligize, or we speak about people behind their backs.
While the Jews were doing similar sins to other nations, one thing the Jews did worse than other nations was their hatred or each other/social injustice. So just like in Moshe's time, when the Jews were punished because they weren't nice to each other [even while slaves] and the Egyptians at least respected each other more or were rude on a lesser scale, then in Yeshayahu's time the people were horrible to each other and were therefore punished more than other nations [added with the fact that they are the chosen people, which we have not yet clarified the meaning of] then their sin is indeed worse. And even today we are guilty of the same crime.
So, the Jews were punished because they were doing the same sins as the rest of the world, and then some because they hated one another.
So I like this answer, because I can see that even today it is true. It makes sense.
There are still other factors to consider, but for this questions, putting aside the "why are there Jews/why am I born a Jew" question, it makes sense.
And the symbolism of the bush as the people isn't a metaphor either, it's symbolism. And it isn't about Hashem so it works.
So I am satisfied. I hope those of you with the same concern over this particular question can be satisfied as well, but if not, keep searching!
We always say Hashem does not have human emotions. And as Mrs. Wittlin said today in class, we have to be careful when explaining Hashem's actions with emotions. So what, is Hashem mad? Can He take away our free choice. I mean, clearly, Hashem is G-d, so yes, He can, but is this what we believe?
ReplyDelete- I think that he's not "taking away our free choice" My understanding is that we believe that Hashem gives us free will to make our own decisions, he may test us and put us in situations that will be hard for us, but he doesn't take away our free will. I think that Hashem was punishing us, not taking away our free will.
If this is what we believe, or is in fact true, then what does that mean for us? Do we want to sit in a classroom and discuss and serve a G-d who acts like that?
-Well, yes. Because if we sat in a classroom and served this G-d and learned as much as possible, we would be able to take away good things from what we learn, and become the type of people that G-d wouldn't need to punish.
Fine, Hashem is teaching a lesson. But first off, why does He really care? I mean, they are violating Torah, but does this make Him sad? Why can't they enjoy themselves?
-I think Hashem wants the Bnei Yisrael to enjoy themselves.. but in the right way. As we've been taught since first grade.. G-d has an ultimate plan, and maybe the way we're acting is the complete opposite of what His plan was. And of course us violating the Torah would upset Him, he gave His Torah, one of the most valuable things, to a nation that is seemingly unappreciative of it.
Why is it fair that Jews, who are doing the same thing as every other nation in the world at the time, are going to be punished just because they are Jews? Why aren't the other nations punished? Just because they aren't Jews doesn't mean they're any less or more in the wrong. So why punish us?
-I actually hate the term "the chosen nation" but technically we kind of are.. G-d chose us to give his torah to, not all the other nations of the world. and we promised Hashem that we were going to be committed to His torah and laws, but the Bnei Yisrael is completely contradicting that promise by going and breaking it, and therefore THEY are punished and not anyone else.
Why is there even a chosen nation? Why does G-d care about the Jews so much?
ReplyDelete-I mean, i don't really know how to answer that question.. clearly when G-d chose us to give the Torah to he saw something special and unique about us, just like Yocheved saw with Moshe at birth.
Why can't we choose to be Jewish? At birth you are nothing and you learn all religions and choose the one that makes the most sense.
It isn't fair for someone who is born Jewish, and is such a good, honest, moral person, but because they are Jewish will be punished for eating non kosher and not keeping shabbat. You can still be a moral person. Why should the whole nation/your family reject you because you don't believe in the same thing, but still, you're a moral person.
-I think it's more of a life lesson for us.. throughout your life you'll encounter things that you might not like or agree with, but just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean that you shouldn't do them, and that it's not good for you. Just like when you're a kid you don't understand why you need to get shots and go to the doctor, you don't understand why you have to follow the Torah, and you may completely disagree, but it's something that you have to learn to accept.. no matter how 'unfair' that is.
Why can't there just be good people? why is it that the Jews are the one? Why are you born Jewish?
-It's not like Jews are the only good people... and why is the grass green? I don't know! But that's how it is, so why should you spend all the time trying to figure it out why.. or trying to dye it blue.. You should just accept that this is the way things are, and adjust yourself to it.
Okay, Hashem will destroy all but a remnant. And I know all of Israel looks out for one another and cares about one another. But let's be honest- if G-d says He will destroy all the Jews [for our purpose using example from class, sorry if you don't want your name up!] aside from Racheli, Jamie, Sharon, Alex, Emma, Mirel, and Orly, I won't care. Yay, some Jews are spared, but what about me? My family? That's no comfort to say a remnant will remain. Because honestly when it comes down to it, I want my family and lineage to survive, I'm not really concerned with the rest of the class.
-Maybe this is Hashem's why of showing us that we should love all of Am Yisrael as if they are our family..
Hashem punished them to teach them a lesson but still loves them and isn't even necessarily angry. Well obviously the lesson hasn't been learned because here we are thousands of years later and we read Yeshayahu's and everyone elses prophecies, we know the sins of the people in the past, we even recognize our sins today, but we don't do anything about it and it obviously doesn't matter because there is still no mashiach
-People aren't perfect.. Hopefully we'll all work together and bring mashiach.
but why should i love everyone in the nation? i dont... true facts, we don't all like or care about each other. only people we know, and only those who we like....
ReplyDeleteI also don't think that we all have to actually love everyone in the nation, but i think the idea is that we're one nation and we must be stong together and not put eachother down. I think we should be nice to one another, because in the end we are of the same flesh and blood.
ReplyDeleteThe whole world comes from Adam and Eve though, so i think we have to if we say "love our nation" we must actually also love everyone in the world, or at least try to be nice to others since loving everyone is inhumane and absurd.
I don't think that we should love everyone in our nation just because they are in our nation. I think that we should like whoever. Perhaps it's that we need to be open and nice to people and give them a chance. I actually am not sure what we're talking about. But I do not think we are required to love people that we don't know. Or love someone who is in our nation more than we like someone else just because they are in our nation. I think the important thing is liking people for who they are and nothing else. Who they are as a person: are they a good person? do they have moral values? Like Sharon said, loving everyone is just absurd and not possible. There is a limit, and that is just downright impossible. Also like Zahava said- nobody loves everyone. Its not possible to not dislike one person. Its in our nature.
ReplyDeleteI just think that in the end, all Jews should be able to decide if they want to take that challenge on; to get more restrictions and obligations but then a greater reward. Or less restrictions and a smaller reward
ReplyDelete"Sharon S."
I agree. I think that each person should be able to decide for themselves which religion they want to follow, or none at all. We might have less religious people in the world, but at least the ones that would be there would actually take religion seriously. If the only Jews in the world chose to be Jewish on their own, there would be much less chilul HaShem and all that because those people would understand the impact of what they were doing better than someone who was just born Jewsih and has no desire to be a frum Jew.
Arguing against myself though, maybe it's better that we are born into a religion instead of making the choice on our own. Obviously when we are teenagers and pre-teens and young adults, religion can get annoying. There are so mony other things we would rather be doing that sitting in shul on shabbos and Yom Tov or davening three times every day. I think that if we were given the choice of religion, we would see the good things, but they might be overshadowed by all the bad/annoying things. When we are born into a religion and raised by that religion we come to love it. Sure, we see the bad/annoying things, but we also see much more of the good things than we would as an outsider. If you ask many adults, in my experience, what is the most important thing to them besides for their family and friends, they will say their faith.
I was born Jewish (obviously), and I'm not complaining, but I can see both sides of the argument.
Wow. I just realized that almost everything I post turns out very long. I didn't realize I could come up with something that long. Good to know.
ReplyDeleteI think that when we say that we should love all the Jews because they are Jewish, when I think about it, I don't think it means that we should love them like we would love our friends. I think it means that we need to be concerned for their welfare, like we should for any human being. It's definitely correct to say that we can't help not liking some people, but unless they did something truly horrific, we would still be concerned for them. Let's say that there is one girl you really don't like at school. She is mean to you, she's a snob to everyone, she's just not a nice girl. You most likely won't want to become friends with her, but if she was hurt in an accident or something, you would want to make sure that she was ok. You would be concerned for her as a person (at least I hope so). So if you see loving all the Jews as caring about them and having concern for their welfare, then it could make a lot more sense.
ReplyDelete"Hashem punished them to teach them a lesson but still loves them and isn't even necessarily angry. Well obviously the lesson hasn't been learned because here we are thousands of years later and we read Yeshayahu's and everyone elses prophecies, we know the sins of the people in the past, we even recognize our sins today, but we don't do anything about it and it obviously doesn't matter because there is still no mashiach."
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your statement that it doesn't matter that we don't do anything about our sins. I think that it is very important that we change, starting with ourselves. Maybe if it was only us in the world Mashiach would have come. But it's not. There are other people in the world as well who don't try as hard as we do. Did your parents/teacher ever tell you to be quiet so others would be? They were trying to get you to set an example. Actions speak louder than words. If you consistently do something, others are more likely to follow your example. If we consistently model the behaviour of a frum, torah true Jewish girl, maybe other Jews will follow our example.