Pascal's
Pascal states, however, that some do not have the ability to believe. In this case, he directs them to live as though they had faith, which may
Historically, Pascal's Wager was groundbreaking as it had charted new territory in probability theory, was one of the first attempts to make use of the concept of infinity, marked the first formal use of decision theory, and anticipated the future philosophies of pragmatism and voluntarism.
I agree with Pascal when he says that living life as though G-d does exist, whether you believe in him or not has much to gain. I don’t think though, that that is why a person should act that way. I think that acting as though G-d exists would give a person good morals to follow and shape them to be a respectable, upright, virtuous person. That might be a good reason to act that way. If a person says that they are only acting a certain way because it will gain them things and they won’t lose anything by acting that way, to me that just seems like an “easy A” if you know what I mean. They are not behaving that way to improve themselves or to help other but to get rewards for no reason. I do agree with Pascal when he says that acting as though there is a G-d, if they do not already actually believe, will eventually lead them to belief.
I do not agree though, when Pascal says that some people do not have ability to believe. I think that everyone is capable of believing in something once they make up their minds to. Also, when we are children we don’t know anything about anything. As we grow up people teach us to do things, and if we are born to a family of a certain religion, our parents teach us to believe in the beliefs of that religion. Otherwise, I am positive that there would be much less religious people in the world today, of any religion. Everyone would be saying that they did not believe in G-d because they “were not capable of doing so”. I think up that we all can do what we decide to do. Whether we want to believe in G-d or not depends on our conscious choice whether or not to do so.
I just put my opinions out there. . . . . . . comment to put yours!
I agree that there is everything to gain and nothing to lose, which is what I said today in navi, so I guess Pascal and I are both pretty smart.
ReplyDeleteBut I disagree with you, Mirel, when you say that people shouldn't do things because of that. It doesn't matter why you do- as long as you do it. After all, isn't it kind of like- we wouldn't be Jewish if our parents hadn't told us it's the right thing. That's not a good reason, but it still is [though we gain faith...]
Also, I don't think you can learn to believe. Tons of people grow up Jewish and leave the faith because they have such a hard time believing, because there is no concrete proof and it is faith. Also, people who grow up with religious parents may still go through the notions of being Jewish even though they don't believe at all- they just do it in case. Better safe than sorry. Anyways, I think a lot of Jews struggle with whether or not they believe, and you can't always learn to believe.
Wanting to believe in G-d, as you say in your last sentence is different than believing. Sure we want to believe an Ultimate Being is watching over us and keeping us safe etc, but it's hard to accept. There's no conscious choice. You may be blessed to be one of those people who can just accept everything, all of it, but others need proofs and backups and answers.
But I agree with Pascal, because there really is so much to gain if you're right, and nothing to lose if you're wrong because you'd have lived a pious life.
I feel like I'm the only one thinking this, but I will just put my opinion out there. I think that we shouldn't be doing things for the reward, we should be doing things because we believe in them. I believe that before we are a decent person for religion, we first just have to be decent people. Of course being a good person and doing good things is a huge part of religion, but I think without incentive to do them, morals should very much be a part of somebody's life. For instance, I don't cheat just because the teacher is in the room watching me; I don't cheat because it's a wrong and dishonest thing to do. Likewise, we shouldn't just be good people out of fear that if we're not Hashem will smite us or whatever. Even if there's no reward or no punishment: we should all try to be good people anyways.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, and Sharon for sure agrees with me here, there are is a lot to lose by living your whole life a lie. For sure, yes, I see that there is stuff to gain, but saying that there is nothing to lose is completely false!
Also, I agree with the statement that some do not have the ability to believe. I think belief is a major gift, and if you don't have it that's not a bad thing. I think that Mirel is putting belief to be out as this miraculous and easy thing. I don't think it's considered belief if that's all you know and that's what your parents say. How can you truly have a strong belief without looking at the other options and then going back and saying 'this is what I believe in'. I don't think not believing is an excuse- there are people who wish that they could but just can't.
"I think that we shouldn't be doing things for the reward, we should be doing things because we believe in them."- Racheli
ReplyDeleteI agree completely with this. It might not have been clear in my post, but this is what I was trying to say.
Also, when you said that there are people who wish they could believe but just can't, I think that is true as well. That might seem contrary to what I posted, but I was stereotyping when I posted that, which maybe I should not have done. In every case, there are people who don't fit in with the statement that is put out there. There are always exceptions.
Well Racheli just a comment- there is value to going through the notions of this even if we do't believe not necessarily because we want the reward, but we'd rather not have the punishment that may come if we choose to ignore all of this and it turns out we are wrong. And if it turns out it's all a lie, then when you die you won't know the difference. Also, what have you lost? Oh no, you spent your Saturday's at home hanging out instead of going to the movies and parties and watching tv, and oh no you never got to eat at fast food stores, which are killing america. I think that better safe than sorry, which may not be the ideal, is just how it is.
ReplyDeleteI have a problem with Pascal's theory in general. I agree that if someone believes in G-d, or acts like it, then they will have a better life in society today. I don't think that people who openly don't believe in G-d will out of the blue pretend to, because their whole mission is to show how He is irrational, and that by using reason you'll figure it out for yourself. Most people like this probably wouldn't deny their Atheism just to get a better deal or something. Also, even though i completely agree with pascal that religion can be found through reason, many Atheists' argument as to why they think there is not a G-d comes from reason as well, so they would probably counter and deny that argument. Also, even if they were an Atheist who was willing to say they weren't one for a better deal, since it says they may grow to accept G-d by "faking" it, they would probably veer away from this approach because they may be afraid of straying from their religion, kind of like what we mentioned in Navi class about how they were making sure not to listen to yeshayahu because they were afraid that they might go back to the way they were supposed to be.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Racheli, on the idea that there is a lot to lose, by living your whole life a lie, believing and doing things that were never true and just useless. Yes Zahava, I understand that you might want to be safe than sorry since there is a possibility that there will be a punishment, but I think it’s not only about dying and then not knowing the difference which won’t change anything. You have only one life to live, and many people do not want to live this life with all those restrictions, but they want to get the most out of it. Yes, not watching television on Shabbat or not going to Mc Donald’s is not a big deal, but if you look at the bigger picture, at how a religion changes and takes over you life, I don’t think that you can go with “Oh I’ll just do it and then I’ll be safe and not sorry.” There is always a reason why you would not chose to fallow a religion and someone (who doesn’t believe in God as much) would have his reasons and those will make him sleep at night since he won’t have to worry about the possibility of a punishment because he has his own “excuses.”
ReplyDeleteIf you just fallow a religion to be safe, and not be punished in the end, it is also not truly fallowing the religion because you’re doing it out of fear rather because your heart believes in it and desires it, and I don’t think that belief, and practice of religion should occur that way. Also, who says that there is not some afterlife without a God, just a place where all dead people have a second life, then Zahava’s theory of dying and not caring (if Judaism wasn’t the true religion, and God didn’t exist) will not work since you will be mad and annoyed at yourself for simply going through life with blind eyes, and not actually looking into things because you were afraid.
I think there are ups and downs to religion. Yes, religion is a wonderful thing how it gives people morals, hope, paths and a better communal life, but religion has also created a lot of war and destruction in the world.
People mostly come to a belief, because their parents believed that way. Parents have a big influence on their children, and those children mostly fallow their parent’s way since that is the way they were taught to believe. Then there are those people who actually want to find their belief by themselves, and try out different things.
I agree with Pascal and Racheli. I don’t think that everyone can be a believer. I think that some people just simply don’t have the ability. On the other hand, there are those believers who are not true believers since they are just fallowing in their parents’ ways and like Racheli said, don’t try or think about different things. I think this is naïve and just lack of caring, since they take the easy way out to just fallow in their parents’ footsteps. There are also those people who don’t believe in G-d, but “turn” to him in time of need. (Pray or talk to him) I don’t think that this is a belief in G-d, I think its just a way to make them feel better by pretending someone is there to listen when they are in trouble. Or there could be a possibility that those people are just lazzy, and are so haughty, that they think they are the best, and nothing could be above them (no G-d), but then in times of need, they realize that they are actually not that great, but very vulnerable.
I agree with Pascal when he says that living life as though G-d does exist, whether you believe in him or not has much to gain. When you accept that g-d exists, it gives you a reason for a lot of things that seemingly just never had a reason. I think that the fact that Pascal said that some people just don't have the ability to believe is absurd.. Everyone has the ABILITY to believe.. it's just whether or not they WANT to.
ReplyDeleteI disagree with Jamie. There can be people who sincerely and deeply WANT to believe, who search for reason and know that they should, but they just can't believe. As much as they learn and are informed and even maybe they'll practice rituals and go around searching- there are people who can't believe. Belief is a gift, and anyone who possess it should truly be grateful.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Racheli. I think it is easy for someone who believes to say that everyone has the ability to believe because I think that this person does not put himself in the shoes of another one who might not have that gift that others have of believing. Maybe one reason why many do not chose to believe in God is because its's more confortable sometimes not to, but I think, not having the ability to believe is another factor.
ReplyDeleteYes, Sharon.
ReplyDeleteIt's like what Rabbi Perl said when we were having dinner at their house: most people in this world are looking for meaning, for a reason for life. But what if there is somebody who is looking for meaning, so they decide to do something that is meaningless? They can do something that is supposed to be meaningful and is meaningful to other people, but without their belief it's no use. So this person, still wanting to find meaning, is tying to make it through, but practicing doesn't help them find any more meaning because they still don't have that belief. Really, belief is something that those who have it must really appreciate. There are those who will feign belief, but that still isn't the same as belief, and does not has as big an impact on you, then when you actually believe .
Ok, I sort of agree with everyone who said that not everyone can decide to have a faith and have one. I think maybe it's more going through the motions than actually believing something. Don't get me wrong. I think that actually believing is still a very big part of it. I just think that it's not everything. I think a good example of this is when we do things in Judaism that we see no reason for, but we do it anyway. It's meaningless to us (though maybe it shouldn't be), but we go through the motions to try to create for ourselves and important meaning it might have. I don't know if any of that made sense, so if you can figure it out and respond, good job!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Mirel. It's true that the belief part may be hard, but as she says, it's more going through the motions.
ReplyDeleteThink logically: the punishment of not doing something is greater than the nothingness of living a Jewish life and finding out that you didn't need to. in the end, you'll either be punished or rewarded, or, there will be nothing. You won't waste your life. You can lead a normal life. Who cares if you can't eat a cheese burger? There's not that much we're missing, and if you're thinking, oh all the stuff I could've done in high school and whatever, it's to late.
Better safe than sorry. If you have self preservation, that should win out over your sense of, "but i want to do that!"
I think that if you do something though, only because you're scared of the punishment it is also not good. You shouldn't live your life through fear. You will have wasted your life since you have done all those things that meant acutally nothing.
ReplyDeletelets just say buddhism is the true religion. Buddah is sitting waiting for people to meditate ect.. then all the times you sat down and prayed it was to something that wasnt even there, so therefore you cannot say that you have not wasted it. You missed out on everything including eating cheeseburgers and if you don't stongly believ in Judaism or another religion then it is not worth it.
It is easy for you to say this Zahava, but for people who strongly don't belive in God have their reasons and therefore it's not easy to simply say "oh big deal i couldn't do all these things in High School." All those things would have no meaning to them..
Well I think that this is true. However, before a person decides that they don't believe in Judaism or any religion because they don't believe in G-d, they need to do as follows:
ReplyDeleteWhen I have my mind made up I know that I don't like to listen to anyone else. Even when I know they have legitimate reasons as well. I just don't want to listen. But it turns out that sometimes I am wrong.
So before anyone stops following G-d, they need to sit down with any learned Jewish person, doesn't have to be a rabbi, and for days just sit and talk about what you find wrong with Judaism and your proofs etc, and then listen with an OPEN MIND to what they have to say. Because while we think we know the right answers and our ideas and proofs are the right ones, we can be wrong. So it's important to have a discussion with someone who may be able to provide with answers..
on to the next thing.
goodbye pascals wager....